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TV, billboards, email, websites, social media- media today is a complex landscape! For a brand to create impact and get people talking, picking the right media mix is a must! Samir talks about some smart media principles that brands and marketers must follow to optimize their marketing campaigns and grow their consumer base!

If you’re a marketeer or founder, confused about how to plan your media, then this episode is just for you!

Learn about:-

2:34 – Media for impulse products category

8:27 – Continuity over impact for B2Bs

15:43 – Media principles for companies creating new concepts

30:43 – How can early-stage brands create impact

Read the text version of the episode below:-

[00:01:26] Vani: So Samir, thank you so much for being on this show. The idea here is to actually just learn some general media principles on how one should think about media, given that media is very complex. Of course. Now there are so many different options of media vehicles available and within every channel itself. What does one do? At one time when we were growing up, it was a lot easier because there were very few channels and very few programs that topped the charts and, if you were looking to get reach, which is talk to a large number of audiences, and you made sure that you were on those select programs. Today, digital in itself is a bottomless pit and cracking digital between Google and Facebook, which seem to be the big platforms that have dominant share. That in itself seems to be a science that is has become a specialist science. And then there are other media vehicles on within this much amount of money can I go to tv? If tv then what other vehicles should I look at? What should be the length of the campaign? , Should I be doing mass media at all or should I be looking at small consumer engagement activities to be able to hit my brand objective?

[00:02:34] Let’s start with the first one, which is, for an impulse products category, there are lots of impulse products, like a chewing gum, a fizzy drink. It could be a snack, it could be a, it could be a cold coffee. It could be. A zillion other things which we buy on impulse, which is without thinking too much, they’re essentially very low involvement products. How should one think about media in the case of an impulse brand? Now, over here, Samir, I wanna give you the caveat that this is a brand. We’ll do two kinds of brands. One, that is, let’s say the Kurkure type and the second, which has very little money, just launched pre-series A and doesn’t have too much money. Cold coffee just launched into the market. Let’s talk about both kinds.

[00:03:17] Samir: Got it. so the, there are plenty of options, which makes the choice you have to be much more diligent just to make the right choice, cuz you can just spend a lot of money and not get anything out of it. So yeah. So this category of impulse, and I would, I’m guessing you’re talking about something which has an offline uh, channel, not on, not an online channel for products like these. So you can still differentiate between and something, an impulse, which is online and impulse, which is.

[00:03:43] Vani: That’s true. You’re right about that. So let’s assume right now that these are products that are available both offline and online, both offline and online.

[00:03:52] Samir: Alright, so let me, so I think there will be a slight difference between online and offline in terms of media selection, but the principle I think would remain the same. So let’s take the offline bit first. And I think this goes back to the basics. What we picked up only during our days of brand marketing that anything which is impulse you need, first of all to be in the consideration set and then be right in front of you when you are purchasing. So what I mean by that is you should, if you are, if you know about the brand, that helps.

[00:04:21] But I think what is more important is to be present at POS at the point of sales. So for any brand and irrespective of online or offline, I think what is more important is what’s your presence? How are you advertising yourself at the point of sales going back to the checkout lane placement right on the top of the shelf placement, those kind of things. So if I’m a brand, I would first ensure that wherever I’m distributed, I have a decent visibility. And, technically, you can call it trade marketing, whatever, but it’s end of the day it’s advertising and marketing. So my first dollars should go to ensure that a consumer who is already there, they would, because these digits are not predecided. These are like, that’s why they’re impulse. So my first money should go right at the POS once that is well covered, I think that’s when I will spend money, anything which is mass. And here again many brands fall into this pitfall of doing very hyper-local kind of marketing. I think an impulse category, you should not get into an hyperlocal kind of, because it thrives on reach because you’ll reach out to a large number of people out of which a small percentage would purchase.

[00:05:26] Cause these are low ticket items. So I would look at a mass media and by mass I don’t mean television. It can be anything. So, first finish everything which is on POSM. Once you have maxed it out, then it may might make sense to get into something which is mass. If you’re at city level, it might mean an outdoor, it might mean a radio, depending on whether your cues are, functional or visual. And if you have a lot of money and if you can afford to, you have a countrywide distribution, then get into something like a television or a YouTube kind of a format where you reach out to a large number of people. So that’s how I would approach this. So let’s say example a packaged cold coffee,

[00:06:04] and distribution with only, let’s say a certain pocket of Delhi. I would ensure that I’m there on the shelf. I have shelf talkers, I have danglers, the regular stuff. And then within that area, if I have the second level of money available, I’ll probably pick up a few hoardings in that locality to ensure that people know the brand. I think that’s how I would approach.

[00:06:25] Vani: Makes a lot of sense, Samir. And tell me what if I’m exactly this cold coffee, but I’m not available offline. I’m still available only online, then?

[00:06:33] Samir: Online. Yeah. So that be, that becomes a very interesting problem. And that’s where we love the digital world. So here, I think it’s the same thing Vani. So here your real estate or shelf is the screen on which the guy is actually doing a purchase. So if you are an impulse, I think this is slightly technical in the sense that how do you want to, so how do you want to create the channel? So there can be two channels. One can be an aggregator market like an Amazon or a Flipkart or a big basket. The other one can be your own D2C site. What we have figured is a D2C site for impulse category is not always the best way to start off. Maybe once you have established, then you will do it. But these are impulse, it’s better to be present where a large number of users are there. And something like an Amazon helps. And the media here then is pure category based targeting where let’s say I have come here and I’m, I know my TG is someone who’s actually buying books. Just to simplify the problem, I would ensure that I run a search targeting campaign or a retargeting campaign on Amazon who, for people who are like searching for books and then I have a proposition which is very clear. So it’s pure POSM in the digital sense. No branding is required there.

[00:07:41] Vani: Makes a lot of sense. So what you’re saying, Samir, is irrespective of offline or online, be available first. Be discoverable at the point of sale. In the case of offline, it’s at the shop. So make sure that you are visible over there. Get your POSM right, make sure that your POSM is noticed by the consumer. The product is noticed by the consumer that you are well available there. And if you’re available online, then make sure wherever the consumer shops, which is more likely to be the e marketplaces, make sure over there you are easily discoverable more than your website. Because for your website, the consumer must be aware of your brand first. And in that might be an unrealistic you know, expectation given early years.

[00:08:23] Samir: And on your D2C side purchase right, it becomes a planned purchase. It’s not in impulse anymore.

[00:08:27] Vani: Ha. Nice. Nice. On a D2C, it becomes a planned purchase. Perfect. So this is absolutely clear. This is great. Let’s move to the second one. What about a B2B company That has, let’s say, CXOs as its only target audience. So if you were to look at CXOs, they’re a very small bunch, all put together, if I were to take all the big, let’s say, the listed companies, not even, I’m not even talking about young startups, if I have to take all the listed companies in India. The entire CXO bunch must be a bunch of about 2000, 2,500 men and women. I have a product that is singularly targeted at this bunch of CXOs. Now I’m a B2B company. I’m looking to speak to this bunch of CXOs. I have limited money, but my product has a high ticket value. Every CXO who’s going to buy my product is going to spend a minimum of 10 to 12 lakhs. In some cases, it’ll be even a few crores. Now, how should I be thinking about media?

[00:09:25] Samir: the way that we approach this problem is and this is common a generic across many many categories is while the decision maker is the CEO, what we have felt is there are many gatekeepers, so let’s say example you need an office space. Let’s take an example as simple as that, and this is typically a decision that CEO gets involved because you’re shifting the entire office from one place to the other. But if you see all the groundwork and everything it is done by the admins, maybe the finance, the negotiations, and that’s when the CEO comes in and says, okay, this makes sense, this doesn’t make sense. Similarly, let’s say a big machinery, you want to automate your plant and you have to invest, let’s say TVS they want to automate certain, this is the vision of the CEO to finally take a call. But if you see engineering is involved many others something so that two, so basically what we have seen is while the CXO CEO is the decision maker, There are a lot of gatekeepers, so I’ll break down into two problems.

[00:10:19] One where there’s a CEO is the only target group, I think, and you are right, their number is too small. And to reach out to these guys theoretically LinkedIn works because they, you can target them technically, but what happened unfortunately is their engagement on this platform is also not that great. And there’s so many brands trying to do the same thing, so if you, even if you try to reach out to these guys through LinkedIn, there is a limited amount of exposure that happens to them. So the brand familiarity doesn’t come in. And because these are high ticket items, most of these interaction, media interactions advertising interactions are meant towards a brand familiarization rather than actually closing a deal. So what will happen is, I know the brand X. Now, someone has reached out to me about this, whether it’s internal, external. I said, oh, great. I have seen this brand. Let’s call. So these are more about lowering the bar, lowering the fear of getting into a wrong, wrong deal. So a brand where the CXO is the only medium, what I would pick is a LinkedIn certainly, but I would not bank on it completely.

[00:11:18] I would look at something which is, let’s say a very non-traditional niche. Means, let’s say something like an airline that has a, that has an business class, a branding there. Maybe a lounge, a high end lounge on the airports. So these are the places where I’ll bring out the brand familiarity and then the sales team would anyway, do their job. But in the other case where I want to reach out to not only the CXO but also the team around it, right. So let’s say example AC Nielsen, they want to sell something as to HUL. Now, while the digital maker might be the CMO there would be other people also who would work towards it. So in this case, I think LinkedIn becomes very powerful because now you suddenly have a bigger reach and it can be, and these decisions because they’re taken over longer period of time, you need to maintain a media continuity.

[00:12:06] So principally what we look at is it should have enough reach, and in this case, because the purchase cycle is long, you look for medium or media that can run across, let’s say five months to six months time. So LinkedIn becomes very critical for continuity purpose, something like an an airline branding Like in aircraft magazines, business newspapers. These become more like a brand introduction. So I introduce the brand to you because they’re expensive I cannot continue to use it for for continuity. So I introduce the brand through these impact medium, which which I say again is like a business sites on YouTube targeting CXOs airlines lounges, and then use LinkedIn for the continuity part. So that would be the structure.

[00:12:50] Vani: Very nice, Samir. So first of all, you are saying look at media in two different ways. One is use relatively mass channels of mass media for the purposes of building brand familiarity because if I’m not familiar with the brand, then it’s difficult to get a foot into the door. Knowing that, like you said, it’s not one decision maker, there are several gatekeepers. I must be able to get positive word of mouth amongst the many different stakeholders in the organization. And so for that, build brand familiarity with relatively mass channels of media. That’s number one. Number two, you are saying do this over a long period of time to be able to build familiarity. Number three, you are saying that LinkedIn is very powerful. If it is CXOs, make sure that you’re there on LinkedIn and and what else? Samir did I miss something?

[00:13:38] Samir: Yeah and what I said is then use digital medium like a business sites, digital site or LinkedIn digital sites to maintain the continuity for six months or so, whatever is the purchase cycle.

[00:13:48] Vani: So I might I’m closing the deal because I’m interacting in a more intimate space, which is LinkedIn relatively more expensive. Specific reach, and of course the eventual deal will happen over several meetings that happen face to face. But to be able to get there, I must be able to first build familiarity that people in the organization don’t say, hey, what is this company you’ve brought to me? I don’t even know them. I don’t want to a risk being with them. I’d rather give the deal to a big known brand. So first I’m getting to the stage of becoming a known brand. they must be good at their job, but they must be, because familiarity in itself builds trust, isn’t it? That’s the one of the principles we use in media again and again.

[00:14:30] Samir: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:14:32] Vani: Okay, fantastic. This is great. And the other very important point is, particularly in a B2B because closing the deal sometimes takes several months, one has to make sure that it’s not an in and out one. One has to make sure I stay engaged over a period of time, which means I have to intelligently use my media monies in order to stay engaged over a period of time.

[00:14:53] Samir: Yeah, I, I think what you should not expect is I put an ad in the newspaper and suddenly my phone calls will start ringing with saying that I want your product. I think that is not going to happen in a sea when you are trying to reach out to the vision makers in an organization.

[00:15:05] Vani: Very nice. Very nice. So don’t expect one ad in the paper, but figure out channels by which you can be around for a period of time which means instead of doing one ad, either crack a know, a press deal, which allows me to be there, let’s say every wednesday or every Tuesday and thursday. Maybe it’s a strip ad series, maybe it’s a I don’t know, some sort of a media innovation. But media innovations are also expensive, but figure out a way by which you can build familiarity over a period of time

[00:15:34] Samir: Exactly so I think principle in a media principle terms, if I would have to put, I would prioritize continuity over impact. I think that’s how I would look at it.

[00:15:43] Vani: Nice. Very nice. Continuity over impact. Perfect. Excellent. Now let’s come to the third categories, Amir. Let’s say I’m a company that’s looking to create a very new concept. I have to educate consumers. People don’t know what this is about. Let’s say it’s a new kind of money platform or a new kind of investment platform or a new concept in foods. For example, now, there’s this new trend on plant milk. Suddenly one hears and this is more typical of Instagram, plant milk or plant meat. In such cases where, the early adopters are very few. I know that this is a new concept. It requires a lot of education. There are gonna be few early adopters. I’m a young company again with small amount of money in my pocket. Now what do I do?

[00:16:30] Samir: No, this is and I think we have been seeing a lot of of things like these in India at least, and not only on the products I believe on the services side, something like Zepto. Saying that you will get or Dunzo so those were new concepts per se, and then there’s suddenly and then there’s an entire range of products.

[00:16:45] Vani: and then what actually helped them was that there were so many players, including a BlinkIt that came in and the whole category was fueled by the collective advertising. Yeah. But at one time when they just started, it seemed like a, like an unbelievable concept.

[00:16:59] Samir: Absolutely. No I, here I think the principle that we use is basically inducing trials. That’s the fundamental to the media planning here, saying that whatever you are doing, at least for the initial part of the brand and I think one, these are not very anything new that we are talking about,

[00:17:16] I think all of us have tried and executed these things right on the brand side. So I, I think the basic principle why you have launched something like this is saying that this product is good and if you haven’t tried anything like this, if you try it, you will love it. I think that’s the basic premise with any brand launches or anyone launching these products. So everything here, should be in and around an active trial, and I’m using the word active trial. Not a free sampling, I’m not talking about free sampling, but something like where you actually do things. So I can give you, let’s say an example, and I think the pioneer in this has been Maggie, where they ensure that they do sampling, they change the behavior where something like a noodles became popular, right? none of us knew it when we were like kids. And even today, when we see many of these products. Whether it’s something like vegan based protein products or whether it’s a service like a Zepto or a Dunzo what we have seen worked well is ensuring that with any media communication, there is an opportunity for the user to try the product and there is some effort from the user to try so that we know that we are the serious products, which are coming in like a Zerodha third, right? another example. Great example of this. So the same product with a different concept that we will not charge you anything for trading. So all these guys, what they have done well is communication along with a possibility of a trial. So an practical application of would of it would be, let’s say I would do some, an activation in an apartment where I have a banner which tells you about the product but then there is an opportunity to buy the product then and there maybe at a 60% discount. But there’s something that’s coming in and once you have these initial trialists coming in, because the product is great, you will end up using it and then they become your brand ambassadors. Once you have hit that critical mass of enough people, then you use mass media to, to further accelerate the word of mouth.

[00:19:06] But I think the initial word of mouth will not come purely from advertising. It’ll come only through trial.

[00:19:12] Vani: Very nice. I love the clarity of your thinking, Samir. You’re saying that in this case, what matters most is, as you defined active trial, do everything possible to get active trials. And I like the way you’re thinking about media. Samir, tell me when I’m thinking of active trials, should I be looking at media at all? What if I were to say I’m not gonna do media at all. I’m only going to do intelligent consumer activation programs. What did Zerodha do?

[00:19:39] Zerodha being a new concept in the market. We are not gonna charge you at all. How did Zerodha get in its very initial stages. How did they spread the word? How did they get people to actively the platform?

[00:19:49] Samir: what we know is initially the friends and the families they had a very interesting referral program, you would have to pay to open an account so it wasn’t free. So you knew this was an active trial happening. There would be few discounts that would be given to you to do the few trials. And then anyone who is referring you gets a lifetime referral money. So with every trade that you continue to doing, your referee does it, you continue make money. So the very strong way to ensure that you refer and you would refer only if you have loved the product. So that’s the model that they use. Yeah, and I think , you certainly don’t need you. You are right. You don’t need media to do this. I think you, what you need here is a method to get trial and the methods can, will depend on the product. So you are, if you are something which you think you can do hyper locally, you can do it for something like a, vegan product or a new salad in the world,

[00:20:41] I think those things can be done very easily through activation. Something which is, let’s say very mass, you can do what we used to call cross sampling. Right where you buy something and you get something along with it. So if you know your target group is matching, so let’s say example, I would say, let’s say there is a new kind of lace for shoes, so you pay 10 rupee extra, you get 90 rupee whenever you purchase a Bata shoe, that’s a another way of inducing trial, but you’re ensuring the guy is willing to pay at least 10 bucks to get the 90 rupee product.

[00:21:08] Vani: So what you mean by active trials are made is either get the person to pay some amount or get the person to do something so that there’s some effort involved, like they say in in marketing psychology, in consumer psychology, that behavior changes attitude. It’s not the other way around. So if I get you to do something, if I get you to put in the effort. If I get you to pay, then chances are that you will receive this product also far more You’re going to be positively predisposed to this product, and therefore an active trial will mean I get you to do something.

[00:21:43] It’s almost like I’m make you want the product, I’m getting you to pay or getting you to do something, and then chances are that there will be a positive referral and then I’m rewarding you for that positive referral as well. positive referral as well. And that’s how the word of mouth spreads.

[00:21:59] Samir: Exactly. Yeah. I, I think free without doing anything, so we have seen many food guys, saying that you just stand in the mall and anyone who’s coming in, you are giving it for free. These never convert, I don’t think that’s the right way to induce trials for sure.

[00:22:12] Vani: Yeah. So free is not valued as much. Free doesn’t, free free is a great word. It’s very good to be free seduces me, but free is not something I value too much. It’s a free I, but when you get me to do something, get me to pay a small amount of money, then I hold it closer to my chest because now I’ve put in the effort, so I value it more. Okay, lovely. This is great.

[00:22:34] Let’s move to the next one now, and this is true for 99% of the products that are launched in the market. Huh? It’s a me too product, yet another in the category. Every possible need that the consumer should have seems to have already been addressed. So most products are yet another me too, although, every brand manager, every entrepreneur believes, oh, my product is this .

[00:22:58] Samir: It’s a new thing. Yeah.

[00:22:59] Vani: My product is what the consumer has been waiting for all her life. How can she not want this? The truth is, it’s yet another me too, the consumer is saying. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s, yeah, it’s just another, so over here, let’s take skin as a category. Skin, for example, on Instagram, it is mind numbing the number of options one has available. The number of brands that are advertising over there. Almost every brand in skin seems to be a me too much as if you were to not scrutinize with a magnifying glass, what the claims are at a broad brush level, if you were to look at the advertising with your senses half dead, which is the reality of how we consume advertising, then almost every brand looks the same. Now I am yet another skincare brand. I’m yet another skincare brand. I’ve just come into the market. I believe I have a kick ass product, a beautiful packaging. Consumers should be lining up. They’re actually not. Now, how should I be? How should I be looking at media? What should I be doing to make sure I get trials, or what should I be doing to make an impact in this category?

[00:24:02] Samir: No, I, I, I think you’re right, Vani. I think if you look at most of the brands while we might be thinking that we have created something great, I think consumer minds is yet another product, I the media principle which we use here is again, going back to our textbook days, saying that you need a higher share of voice to gain a share of market. I think it’s as simple as that. Now, I’ll tell you the the statement is very simple. The implications and the application of it can be really complicated. So the only way to grow here is if your share of voice is higher than share of market.

[00:24:32] Vani: But I don’t have, I don’t have so much money Samir.

[00:24:34] Samir: Exactly. Absolutely. Yes. That’s where the trick comes in. And that’s where media planners like us make their money, because let’s say you’re not compete, you, you certainly cannot go against and like compete have a higher share of voice than a PNG and a Lever right You. You cannot do that. So then what you do is what you, what we call segmentation, you create a segment, and I’ll tell you what segment we are talking about. You create a segment where you can manage to get a higher SOV over the competition or over the immediate leader. So the segmentation can be in two ways.

[00:25:06] One, you can get a very segmented niche audience in which you can pick. So let’s say example, within skincare, I might want to say I would only go to to people who are geographically in a certain area and income like this, maybe people are working in IT companies, so I have created a smaller audience set among the entire audience set, and then I will probably pick media accordingly where I can actually manage to beat anyone. So example, let’s say if I say that I would I, my target audience for this skincare product are only women who are working in IT companies and more than 25 years of age now, that’s an audience where I can actually beat any I can for when a spend like five lakh rupees, I can get a share of voice, which is higher than the competition of a PNG or a Levers.

[00:25:54] So that’s one way of segmenting it. The other way of segmenting it, you also can get a higher share of voice in a particular media, and that is something which many brands have done What I mean by that is, let’s say example in Mumbai, I can just pick Mumbai Metro, and say In Mumbai Metro, I will be the most visible brand in this category. Now that I can do for two and a half lakhs in a month. And that’s where you will have.

[00:26:16] Vani: Two and a half lakhs in a month in Mumbai Metro alone? Okay, so this is excellent. It’s very specific. Now tell me, I have two and a half lakhs in the month. I wanna create an impact in Mumbai Metro with this beautiful skin serum that I have on which I’m claiming 10 x vitamin C and 10 x radiance. Now, what would I do? Tell me

[00:26:36] Samir: So what I would do is I’ll look at how much time, let’s say example I, I don’t know who, what the equivalent product, but let’s say example. It’s, It’s one is Ponds, which is the equivalent product in this category. I see that Ponds probably takes 10% of the overall ad space here, which costs two lakh rupees. I will put two and a half, I’ll get 20% or 15% of the ad space there. So I am actually have a higher share of voice over the other guy over Ponds in that particular media. So anyone who’s consuming media there, they will take an action.

[00:27:09] Vani: So over here, the the principle you’re saying is go narrow. Identify your consumer very sharply, identify your geography very sharply. Identify your media vehicle very sharply and in this you know, sharply identified consumer into geography, into media vehicle. Make sure that you have a higher share of voice than the incumbent market leader. And so you become this king in this little puddle, but when you become a king in that puddle, it’ll be easier for you to to expand from there. Does that make sense?

[00:27:46] Samir: Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. So just to reiterate it, so you, your objective is to have a higher share of voice than your share of market,

[00:27:55] Vani: in that geography for that segment. I have a higher share of voice than Ponds that, yeah, that doesn’t seem so intimidating. Otherwise, Ponds would would be a monster.

[00:28:03] Samir: Exactly. Otherwise you can, yeah. And that you can do either through media segmentation or through consumer segmentation. So what I mean by that media segmentation, I can just take, let’s say example autos I’m not for this category, but let’s say some other category where, let’s say a cab advertising now a cab, I can ensure that, that I know that my segment, my target group is there, but the competition is not advertising there. I will pick up enough numbers so that on the audience who is watching ads on cab, there, I am the only brand known or I am the bigger brand known. So that’s when you segment it using a media. You can also segment it using the audience, which was the other example where it said, I want to do something in the IT park, so everyone who is my audience in the IT park should know me more than anyone else. So then I advertise inside IT park, which might cost me a lakh I will take a bus shelter and a bus route in and around that IT park, which might cost me another lakh, lakh and a half. So within two, two and a half lakh kind of money, I am, I ensure that I am the bigger known brand for that audience.

[00:29:02] Vani: So by the same principle, tell me Samir. Now I’m extending this to a B2B company. Okay. Now, let’s say I’m a B2B company. I don’t have too much money. I am talking to all of the HR heads, only the HR heads of large companies. Okay? I know that these HR heads are inundated with proposals from insurance companies health, and wellness compensation management various kinds of SAS-based products, blah, blah for, employee productivity, blah, blah. I am one amongst those many players, and I also have to get the ear of the CHRO now where I’m competing against so many other companies that are also putting up, Putting proposals in front of the CHRO, what if I were to decide that I will become the king at this one conference, which is called the NHRD? At the NHRD conference. I will put in enough amount of money and do something so maverick that for all of the HR heads that come to this conference, I am the only brand that sticks in their head. Would that be a good idea? \

[00:30:10] Samir: So it would be, so I’ll mix this one with the previous one where we talked about reaching out to the CXOs, I think what will what this will do, this approach will do, is to get you the brand familiarity. But the continuity is something that needs to be maintained. Because what will happen is by the time you get an so this will get you an introduction, but by the time you go meet talk, people forget again. So I think it’ll be a good medium to get that initial impact and introduction and then follow up with something like LinkedIn to ensure that there’s a gentle reminder that continues happening.

[00:30:43] Vani: Perfect. Makes a lot of sense. Fantastic. Okay, last one, Samir. I’m a young startup three series A. I have only less than two crores budget. Actually even two crores seems to be quite quite bountiful. Let’s say I have one and a half or one crore budget. This is all I have. I’m a young pre-series A startup, huh, and and I’m looking to play the mass market of kids apparel. I believe my apparel is the most thoughtfully constructed. I believe that there is something unique about my apparel. Now, what would you recommend I do?

[00:31:16] Samir: I think where the initial corpus is too small to do anything, which is like a very large market. I think for any brand like this, what is very important for them is to have a very ROI driven marketing where they are operating much more at the bottom of the funnel and middle of the funnel. Than rather than the top of the funnel, because at this kind of budget, you will not be able to do a much impact on the top of the funnel. So I think till your budgets are like about the one cr and your market is more or less mass where there are established players and you have a differentiated proposition. I would suggest put all of these money into performance marketing and performance itself has a lot of things built into it. So till you can and till you can scale up your performance, I don’t think there is any point putting money into branding. It’s only once your performance is stagnating or you have an enough ROI where you can use money to build more top of the funnel, you should take money out of it.

[00:32:14] But let’s say one cr for an year translates to about seven to eight lakhs in a month, I think it’s better you invest it into a Facebook and a Google campaign, which gives you right purchase. And I’m assuming here that they have an online,

[00:32:28] Vani: correct, definitely. Yes.

[00:32:30] Samir: And most of these brands would be like that, so I think initial money just put into these and seven, eight lakhs easily can be spent into this category. It’s only once this has started plateauing, your CACs are going very high and your growth is more or less flat. Is that when you have to start investing money towards the top of the funnel. Now, once you have that money, still, your your approach should be, see, most of these performance campaigns they work on, like if I have to simplify it, they work on the basis of your retargeting audience and a look-like audience. So first, run performance. Now if you have more money left, try to drive traffic or installs towards your website and the app so that these performance platforms have more and more of top of the funnel audience, so they know who are the audience who are engaging with this so that they can use them to convert.

[00:33:20] So establish the funnel with the bottom of the funnel and middle of the funnel. Then anytime you have money, try to run campaigns, which are again towards traffic or installs, but not to get into branding at this stage for sure. So initial branding should come from product usage rather than media communication.

[00:33:38] Vani: Perfect. Samir, this makes a lot of sense and of course needless to say that when you run your performance marketing campaign, make sure you have character, make sure you have personality, make sure you have smart, clear messaging that there is a sharp proposition. The consumer knows why one should buy you. You’re not just, you don’t just mix in the sea of the, zillion other apparel brands, that you look distinctive. And while you’re doing that, spend all your money on performance.

[00:34:02] Samir: Yeah, no, I think Vani you have put, you have hit the nail right on the head, but unfortunately it’s such simplistic thing. But most of the brands, they miss out on that part and they end up actually either blaming the platform or people who are running it right or saying that this platform doesn’t work for me. If say Facebook and Google with 500 million plus people on the platform doesn’t work for your product, then there is something wrong with the product. And with all the AI like Google, which is a performance max, or Facebook, which has only way has a conversion campaign, actually, you don’t need to do much with the platform. You should be spending 90% of your time on the creative and the communication and the brand personality, and that’s where people take the shortcut and invest the least amount of time. But if they can lead everything to the platform I’m saying like even at the risk of being too simplistic, you just do an open targeting, leave the product. But if your creative are right, if your product is right, you will be able to run a successful performance campaign.

[00:34:55] Vani: Very well said. Absolutely. And I keep saying this all the time, that the consumer doesn’t know or care whether this is a brand campaign or a performance campaign or what kind of an ad is this. All that the consumer is looking at is some ad. It’s yet another ad. And you’ve got to figure as a marketer whether your ad is creating impact. You know, but we, we stress about, in our mind, we are thinking nahi yeh toh performance as hai, yeh toh brand campaign ad hai, toh brand campaign ad me aisa aisa hona chaahiye and performance ad me aisa aisa hona chaahiye. Consumer just doesn’t care. It’s an ad. She looks at that ad and she decides.

[00:35:34] Samir: People take shortcuts and creative. I think that’s where. It’s and with the, all the platforms moving towards the such strong AI now performance max kinda campaign, they don’t even let you do anything. They will do it for you. And there’s a line use very frequently for many brands when they come and ask ki mere liye Facebook ka kaam karega kya? And I tell them the question is wrong, the question that you should be asking is, what should I do so that Facebook

[00:36:04] Vani: works for me. Very nice. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:07] Samir: If Facebook and Google is not working for you, then you better figure out a way that it works out for you. so, and creative is the bigger route to pick up and the right route to ensure that it works.

[00:36:20] Vani: Yeah. Yeah. So often you and I have had conversations where I’ve come to you asking for media solutions and you’ve always pushed me back and said, what about the creative? Show me the creative, what is the creative looking like? It goes back to exactly what you are saying just now.

[00:36:33] Samir: Nahi people take a shortcut there, I think. And that’s an also the area of discomfort for many of people who are like on the product side, who are on the engineering side.

[00:36:42] Vani: Yes, Yes. Because performance marketing seems to be like working the algo. I’m very smart tech gal. I can work the algo. If I just work the algo and the creative will work, not realizing that the consumer is a simple animal and the consumer is looking at this as just another ad and she’s scrolling she makes the decision on where she should stop. I think Facebook had done a damn good job of educating marketers with their thumb stopping campaign, but I think there is a lot more that needs to be done on what a hardworking creative is in the world of digital.

[00:37:15] Samir: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:37:17] Vani: Okay, fantastic. Samir, it’s been lovely talking to you. There’s been so much so simple and there’s so much clarity in the way you think and what you’ve given us as the audience is. Thank you so much for this.

[00:37:29] Samir: Thanks, Vani.

This show is sponsored by CherryPeachPlum Growth Consultancy. ?CherryPeachPlum is a marketing-focused business consultancy that delivers business results. Get in touch via www.cherrypeachplum.in to get marketing solutions that work in the real world!

TV, billboards, email, websites, social media- media today is a complex landscape! For a brand to create impact and get people talking, picking the right media mix is a must! Samir talks about some smart media principles that brands and marketers must follow to optimize their marketing campaigns and grow their consumer base!

If you’re a marketeer or founder, confused about how to plan your media, then this episode is just for you!

Learn about:-

2:34 – Media for impulse products category

8:27 – Continuity over impact for B2Bs

15:43 – Media principles for companies creating new concepts

30:43 – How can early-stage brands create impact

Read the text version of the episode below:-

[00:01:26] Vani: So Samir, thank you so much for being on this show. The idea here is to actually just learn some general media principles on how one should think about media, given that media is very complex. Of course. Now there are so many different options of media vehicles available and within every channel itself. What does one do? At one time when we were growing up, it was a lot easier because there were very few channels and very few programs that topped the charts and, if you were looking to get reach, which is talk to a large number of audiences, and you made sure that you were on those select programs. Today, digital in itself is a bottomless pit and cracking digital between Google and Facebook, which seem to be the big platforms that have dominant share. That in itself seems to be a science that is has become a specialist science. And then there are other media vehicles on within this much amount of money can I go to tv? If tv then what other vehicles should I look at? What should be the length of the campaign? , Should I be doing mass media at all or should I be looking at small consumer engagement activities to be able to hit my brand objective?

[00:02:34] Let’s start with the first one, which is, for an impulse products category, there are lots of impulse products, like a chewing gum, a fizzy drink. It could be a snack, it could be a, it could be a cold coffee. It could be. A zillion other things which we buy on impulse, which is without thinking too much, they’re essentially very low involvement products. How should one think about media in the case of an impulse brand? Now, over here, Samir, I wanna give you the caveat that this is a brand. We’ll do two kinds of brands. One, that is, let’s say the Kurkure type and the second, which has very little money, just launched pre-series A and doesn’t have too much money. Cold coffee just launched into the market. Let’s talk about both kinds.

[00:03:17] Samir: Got it. so the, there are plenty of options, which makes the choice you have to be much more diligent just to make the right choice, cuz you can just spend a lot of money and not get anything out of it. So yeah. So this category of impulse, and I would, I’m guessing you’re talking about something which has an offline uh, channel, not on, not an online channel for products like these. So you can still differentiate between and something, an impulse, which is online and impulse, which is.

[00:03:43] Vani: That’s true. You’re right about that. So let’s assume right now that these are products that are available both offline and online, both offline and online.

[00:03:52] Samir: Alright, so let me, so I think there will be a slight difference between online and offline in terms of media selection, but the principle I think would remain the same. So let’s take the offline bit first. And I think this goes back to the basics. What we picked up only during our days of brand marketing that anything which is impulse you need, first of all to be in the consideration set and then be right in front of you when you are purchasing. So what I mean by that is you should, if you are, if you know about the brand, that helps.

[00:04:21] But I think what is more important is to be present at POS at the point of sales. So for any brand and irrespective of online or offline, I think what is more important is what’s your presence? How are you advertising yourself at the point of sales going back to the checkout lane placement right on the top of the shelf placement, those kind of things. So if I’m a brand, I would first ensure that wherever I’m distributed, I have a decent visibility. And, technically, you can call it trade marketing, whatever, but it’s end of the day it’s advertising and marketing. So my first dollars should go to ensure that a consumer who is already there, they would, because these digits are not predecided. These are like, that’s why they’re impulse. So my first money should go right at the POS once that is well covered, I think that’s when I will spend money, anything which is mass. And here again many brands fall into this pitfall of doing very hyper-local kind of marketing. I think an impulse category, you should not get into an hyperlocal kind of, because it thrives on reach because you’ll reach out to a large number of people out of which a small percentage would purchase.

[00:05:26] Cause these are low ticket items. So I would look at a mass media and by mass I don’t mean television. It can be anything. So, first finish everything which is on POSM. Once you have maxed it out, then it may might make sense to get into something which is mass. If you’re at city level, it might mean an outdoor, it might mean a radio, depending on whether your cues are, functional or visual. And if you have a lot of money and if you can afford to, you have a countrywide distribution, then get into something like a television or a YouTube kind of a format where you reach out to a large number of people. So that’s how I would approach this. So let’s say example a packaged cold coffee,

[00:06:04] and distribution with only, let’s say a certain pocket of Delhi. I would ensure that I’m there on the shelf. I have shelf talkers, I have danglers, the regular stuff. And then within that area, if I have the second level of money available, I’ll probably pick up a few hoardings in that locality to ensure that people know the brand. I think that’s how I would approach.

[00:06:25] Vani: Makes a lot of sense, Samir. And tell me what if I’m exactly this cold coffee, but I’m not available offline. I’m still available only online, then?

[00:06:33] Samir: Online. Yeah. So that be, that becomes a very interesting problem. And that’s where we love the digital world. So here, I think it’s the same thing Vani. So here your real estate or shelf is the screen on which the guy is actually doing a purchase. So if you are an impulse, I think this is slightly technical in the sense that how do you want to, so how do you want to create the channel? So there can be two channels. One can be an aggregator market like an Amazon or a Flipkart or a big basket. The other one can be your own D2C site. What we have figured is a D2C site for impulse category is not always the best way to start off. Maybe once you have established, then you will do it. But these are impulse, it’s better to be present where a large number of users are there. And something like an Amazon helps. And the media here then is pure category based targeting where let’s say I have come here and I’m, I know my TG is someone who’s actually buying books. Just to simplify the problem, I would ensure that I run a search targeting campaign or a retargeting campaign on Amazon who, for people who are like searching for books and then I have a proposition which is very clear. So it’s pure POSM in the digital sense. No branding is required there.

[00:07:41] Vani: Makes a lot of sense. So what you’re saying, Samir, is irrespective of offline or online, be available first. Be discoverable at the point of sale. In the case of offline, it’s at the shop. So make sure that you are visible over there. Get your POSM right, make sure that your POSM is noticed by the consumer. The product is noticed by the consumer that you are well available there. And if you’re available online, then make sure wherever the consumer shops, which is more likely to be the e marketplaces, make sure over there you are easily discoverable more than your website. Because for your website, the consumer must be aware of your brand first. And in that might be an unrealistic you know, expectation given early years.

[00:08:23] Samir: And on your D2C side purchase right, it becomes a planned purchase. It’s not in impulse anymore.

[00:08:27] Vani: Ha. Nice. Nice. On a D2C, it becomes a planned purchase. Perfect. So this is absolutely clear. This is great. Let’s move to the second one. What about a B2B company That has, let’s say, CXOs as its only target audience. So if you were to look at CXOs, they’re a very small bunch, all put together, if I were to take all the big, let’s say, the listed companies, not even, I’m not even talking about young startups, if I have to take all the listed companies in India. The entire CXO bunch must be a bunch of about 2000, 2,500 men and women. I have a product that is singularly targeted at this bunch of CXOs. Now I’m a B2B company. I’m looking to speak to this bunch of CXOs. I have limited money, but my product has a high ticket value. Every CXO who’s going to buy my product is going to spend a minimum of 10 to 12 lakhs. In some cases, it’ll be even a few crores. Now, how should I be thinking about media?

[00:09:25] Samir: the way that we approach this problem is and this is common a generic across many many categories is while the decision maker is the CEO, what we have felt is there are many gatekeepers, so let’s say example you need an office space. Let’s take an example as simple as that, and this is typically a decision that CEO gets involved because you’re shifting the entire office from one place to the other. But if you see all the groundwork and everything it is done by the admins, maybe the finance, the negotiations, and that’s when the CEO comes in and says, okay, this makes sense, this doesn’t make sense. Similarly, let’s say a big machinery, you want to automate your plant and you have to invest, let’s say TVS they want to automate certain, this is the vision of the CEO to finally take a call. But if you see engineering is involved many others something so that two, so basically what we have seen is while the CXO CEO is the decision maker, There are a lot of gatekeepers, so I’ll break down into two problems.

[00:10:19] One where there’s a CEO is the only target group, I think, and you are right, their number is too small. And to reach out to these guys theoretically LinkedIn works because they, you can target them technically, but what happened unfortunately is their engagement on this platform is also not that great. And there’s so many brands trying to do the same thing, so if you, even if you try to reach out to these guys through LinkedIn, there is a limited amount of exposure that happens to them. So the brand familiarity doesn’t come in. And because these are high ticket items, most of these interaction, media interactions advertising interactions are meant towards a brand familiarization rather than actually closing a deal. So what will happen is, I know the brand X. Now, someone has reached out to me about this, whether it’s internal, external. I said, oh, great. I have seen this brand. Let’s call. So these are more about lowering the bar, lowering the fear of getting into a wrong, wrong deal. So a brand where the CXO is the only medium, what I would pick is a LinkedIn certainly, but I would not bank on it completely.

[00:11:18] I would look at something which is, let’s say a very non-traditional niche. Means, let’s say something like an airline that has a, that has an business class, a branding there. Maybe a lounge, a high end lounge on the airports. So these are the places where I’ll bring out the brand familiarity and then the sales team would anyway, do their job. But in the other case where I want to reach out to not only the CXO but also the team around it, right. So let’s say example AC Nielsen, they want to sell something as to HUL. Now, while the digital maker might be the CMO there would be other people also who would work towards it. So in this case, I think LinkedIn becomes very powerful because now you suddenly have a bigger reach and it can be, and these decisions because they’re taken over longer period of time, you need to maintain a media continuity.

[00:12:06] So principally what we look at is it should have enough reach, and in this case, because the purchase cycle is long, you look for medium or media that can run across, let’s say five months to six months time. So LinkedIn becomes very critical for continuity purpose, something like an an airline branding Like in aircraft magazines, business newspapers. These become more like a brand introduction. So I introduce the brand to you because they’re expensive I cannot continue to use it for for continuity. So I introduce the brand through these impact medium, which which I say again is like a business sites on YouTube targeting CXOs airlines lounges, and then use LinkedIn for the continuity part. So that would be the structure.

[00:12:50] Vani: Very nice, Samir. So first of all, you are saying look at media in two different ways. One is use relatively mass channels of mass media for the purposes of building brand familiarity because if I’m not familiar with the brand, then it’s difficult to get a foot into the door. Knowing that, like you said, it’s not one decision maker, there are several gatekeepers. I must be able to get positive word of mouth amongst the many different stakeholders in the organization. And so for that, build brand familiarity with relatively mass channels of media. That’s number one. Number two, you are saying do this over a long period of time to be able to build familiarity. Number three, you are saying that LinkedIn is very powerful. If it is CXOs, make sure that you’re there on LinkedIn and and what else? Samir did I miss something?

[00:13:38] Samir: Yeah and what I said is then use digital medium like a business sites, digital site or LinkedIn digital sites to maintain the continuity for six months or so, whatever is the purchase cycle.

[00:13:48] Vani: So I might I’m closing the deal because I’m interacting in a more intimate space, which is LinkedIn relatively more expensive. Specific reach, and of course the eventual deal will happen over several meetings that happen face to face. But to be able to get there, I must be able to first build familiarity that people in the organization don’t say, hey, what is this company you’ve brought to me? I don’t even know them. I don’t want to a risk being with them. I’d rather give the deal to a big known brand. So first I’m getting to the stage of becoming a known brand. they must be good at their job, but they must be, because familiarity in itself builds trust, isn’t it? That’s the one of the principles we use in media again and again.

[00:14:30] Samir: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:14:32] Vani: Okay, fantastic. This is great. And the other very important point is, particularly in a B2B because closing the deal sometimes takes several months, one has to make sure that it’s not an in and out one. One has to make sure I stay engaged over a period of time, which means I have to intelligently use my media monies in order to stay engaged over a period of time.

[00:14:53] Samir: Yeah, I, I think what you should not expect is I put an ad in the newspaper and suddenly my phone calls will start ringing with saying that I want your product. I think that is not going to happen in a sea when you are trying to reach out to the vision makers in an organization.

[00:15:05] Vani: Very nice. Very nice. So don’t expect one ad in the paper, but figure out channels by which you can be around for a period of time which means instead of doing one ad, either crack a know, a press deal, which allows me to be there, let’s say every wednesday or every Tuesday and thursday. Maybe it’s a strip ad series, maybe it’s a I don’t know, some sort of a media innovation. But media innovations are also expensive, but figure out a way by which you can build familiarity over a period of time

[00:15:34] Samir: Exactly so I think principle in a media principle terms, if I would have to put, I would prioritize continuity over impact. I think that’s how I would look at it.

[00:15:43] Vani: Nice. Very nice. Continuity over impact. Perfect. Excellent. Now let’s come to the third categories, Amir. Let’s say I’m a company that’s looking to create a very new concept. I have to educate consumers. People don’t know what this is about. Let’s say it’s a new kind of money platform or a new kind of investment platform or a new concept in foods. For example, now, there’s this new trend on plant milk. Suddenly one hears and this is more typical of Instagram, plant milk or plant meat. In such cases where, the early adopters are very few. I know that this is a new concept. It requires a lot of education. There are gonna be few early adopters. I’m a young company again with small amount of money in my pocket. Now what do I do?

[00:16:30] Samir: No, this is and I think we have been seeing a lot of of things like these in India at least, and not only on the products I believe on the services side, something like Zepto. Saying that you will get or Dunzo so those were new concepts per se, and then there’s suddenly and then there’s an entire range of products.

[00:16:45] Vani: and then what actually helped them was that there were so many players, including a BlinkIt that came in and the whole category was fueled by the collective advertising. Yeah. But at one time when they just started, it seemed like a, like an unbelievable concept.

[00:16:59] Samir: Absolutely. No I, here I think the principle that we use is basically inducing trials. That’s the fundamental to the media planning here, saying that whatever you are doing, at least for the initial part of the brand and I think one, these are not very anything new that we are talking about,

[00:17:16] I think all of us have tried and executed these things right on the brand side. So I, I think the basic principle why you have launched something like this is saying that this product is good and if you haven’t tried anything like this, if you try it, you will love it. I think that’s the basic premise with any brand launches or anyone launching these products. So everything here, should be in and around an active trial, and I’m using the word active trial. Not a free sampling, I’m not talking about free sampling, but something like where you actually do things. So I can give you, let’s say an example, and I think the pioneer in this has been Maggie, where they ensure that they do sampling, they change the behavior where something like a noodles became popular, right? none of us knew it when we were like kids. And even today, when we see many of these products. Whether it’s something like vegan based protein products or whether it’s a service like a Zepto or a Dunzo what we have seen worked well is ensuring that with any media communication, there is an opportunity for the user to try the product and there is some effort from the user to try so that we know that we are the serious products, which are coming in like a Zerodha third, right? another example. Great example of this. So the same product with a different concept that we will not charge you anything for trading. So all these guys, what they have done well is communication along with a possibility of a trial. So an practical application of would of it would be, let’s say I would do some, an activation in an apartment where I have a banner which tells you about the product but then there is an opportunity to buy the product then and there maybe at a 60% discount. But there’s something that’s coming in and once you have these initial trialists coming in, because the product is great, you will end up using it and then they become your brand ambassadors. Once you have hit that critical mass of enough people, then you use mass media to, to further accelerate the word of mouth.

[00:19:06] But I think the initial word of mouth will not come purely from advertising. It’ll come only through trial.

[00:19:12] Vani: Very nice. I love the clarity of your thinking, Samir. You’re saying that in this case, what matters most is, as you defined active trial, do everything possible to get active trials. And I like the way you’re thinking about media. Samir, tell me when I’m thinking of active trials, should I be looking at media at all? What if I were to say I’m not gonna do media at all. I’m only going to do intelligent consumer activation programs. What did Zerodha do?

[00:19:39] Zerodha being a new concept in the market. We are not gonna charge you at all. How did Zerodha get in its very initial stages. How did they spread the word? How did they get people to actively the platform?

[00:19:49] Samir: what we know is initially the friends and the families they had a very interesting referral program, you would have to pay to open an account so it wasn’t free. So you knew this was an active trial happening. There would be few discounts that would be given to you to do the few trials. And then anyone who is referring you gets a lifetime referral money. So with every trade that you continue to doing, your referee does it, you continue make money. So the very strong way to ensure that you refer and you would refer only if you have loved the product. So that’s the model that they use. Yeah, and I think , you certainly don’t need you. You are right. You don’t need media to do this. I think you, what you need here is a method to get trial and the methods can, will depend on the product. So you are, if you are something which you think you can do hyper locally, you can do it for something like a, vegan product or a new salad in the world,

[00:20:41] I think those things can be done very easily through activation. Something which is, let’s say very mass, you can do what we used to call cross sampling. Right where you buy something and you get something along with it. So if you know your target group is matching, so let’s say example, I would say, let’s say there is a new kind of lace for shoes, so you pay 10 rupee extra, you get 90 rupee whenever you purchase a Bata shoe, that’s a another way of inducing trial, but you’re ensuring the guy is willing to pay at least 10 bucks to get the 90 rupee product.

[00:21:08] Vani: So what you mean by active trials are made is either get the person to pay some amount or get the person to do something so that there’s some effort involved, like they say in in marketing psychology, in consumer psychology, that behavior changes attitude. It’s not the other way around. So if I get you to do something, if I get you to put in the effort. If I get you to pay, then chances are that you will receive this product also far more You’re going to be positively predisposed to this product, and therefore an active trial will mean I get you to do something.

[00:21:43] It’s almost like I’m make you want the product, I’m getting you to pay or getting you to do something, and then chances are that there will be a positive referral and then I’m rewarding you for that positive referral as well. positive referral as well. And that’s how the word of mouth spreads.

[00:21:59] Samir: Exactly. Yeah. I, I think free without doing anything, so we have seen many food guys, saying that you just stand in the mall and anyone who’s coming in, you are giving it for free. These never convert, I don’t think that’s the right way to induce trials for sure.

[00:22:12] Vani: Yeah. So free is not valued as much. Free doesn’t, free free is a great word. It’s very good to be free seduces me, but free is not something I value too much. It’s a free I, but when you get me to do something, get me to pay a small amount of money, then I hold it closer to my chest because now I’ve put in the effort, so I value it more. Okay, lovely. This is great.

[00:22:34] Let’s move to the next one now, and this is true for 99% of the products that are launched in the market. Huh? It’s a me too product, yet another in the category. Every possible need that the consumer should have seems to have already been addressed. So most products are yet another me too, although, every brand manager, every entrepreneur believes, oh, my product is this .

[00:22:58] Samir: It’s a new thing. Yeah.

[00:22:59] Vani: My product is what the consumer has been waiting for all her life. How can she not want this? The truth is, it’s yet another me too, the consumer is saying. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s, yeah, it’s just another, so over here, let’s take skin as a category. Skin, for example, on Instagram, it is mind numbing the number of options one has available. The number of brands that are advertising over there. Almost every brand in skin seems to be a me too much as if you were to not scrutinize with a magnifying glass, what the claims are at a broad brush level, if you were to look at the advertising with your senses half dead, which is the reality of how we consume advertising, then almost every brand looks the same. Now I am yet another skincare brand. I’m yet another skincare brand. I’ve just come into the market. I believe I have a kick ass product, a beautiful packaging. Consumers should be lining up. They’re actually not. Now, how should I be? How should I be looking at media? What should I be doing to make sure I get trials, or what should I be doing to make an impact in this category?

[00:24:02] Samir: No, I, I, I think you’re right, Vani. I think if you look at most of the brands while we might be thinking that we have created something great, I think consumer minds is yet another product, I the media principle which we use here is again, going back to our textbook days, saying that you need a higher share of voice to gain a share of market. I think it’s as simple as that. Now, I’ll tell you the the statement is very simple. The implications and the application of it can be really complicated. So the only way to grow here is if your share of voice is higher than share of market.

[00:24:32] Vani: But I don’t have, I don’t have so much money Samir.

[00:24:34] Samir: Exactly. Absolutely. Yes. That’s where the trick comes in. And that’s where media planners like us make their money, because let’s say you’re not compete, you, you certainly cannot go against and like compete have a higher share of voice than a PNG and a Lever right You. You cannot do that. So then what you do is what you, what we call segmentation, you create a segment, and I’ll tell you what segment we are talking about. You create a segment where you can manage to get a higher SOV over the competition or over the immediate leader. So the segmentation can be in two ways.

[00:25:06] One, you can get a very segmented niche audience in which you can pick. So let’s say example, within skincare, I might want to say I would only go to to people who are geographically in a certain area and income like this, maybe people are working in IT companies, so I have created a smaller audience set among the entire audience set, and then I will probably pick media accordingly where I can actually manage to beat anyone. So example, let’s say if I say that I would I, my target audience for this skincare product are only women who are working in IT companies and more than 25 years of age now, that’s an audience where I can actually beat any I can for when a spend like five lakh rupees, I can get a share of voice, which is higher than the competition of a PNG or a Levers.

[00:25:54] So that’s one way of segmenting it. The other way of segmenting it, you also can get a higher share of voice in a particular media, and that is something which many brands have done What I mean by that is, let’s say example in Mumbai, I can just pick Mumbai Metro, and say In Mumbai Metro, I will be the most visible brand in this category. Now that I can do for two and a half lakhs in a month. And that’s where you will have.

[00:26:16] Vani: Two and a half lakhs in a month in Mumbai Metro alone? Okay, so this is excellent. It’s very specific. Now tell me, I have two and a half lakhs in the month. I wanna create an impact in Mumbai Metro with this beautiful skin serum that I have on which I’m claiming 10 x vitamin C and 10 x radiance. Now, what would I do? Tell me

[00:26:36] Samir: So what I would do is I’ll look at how much time, let’s say example I, I don’t know who, what the equivalent product, but let’s say example. It’s, It’s one is Ponds, which is the equivalent product in this category. I see that Ponds probably takes 10% of the overall ad space here, which costs two lakh rupees. I will put two and a half, I’ll get 20% or 15% of the ad space there. So I am actually have a higher share of voice over the other guy over Ponds in that particular media. So anyone who’s consuming media there, they will take an action.

[00:27:09] Vani: So over here, the the principle you’re saying is go narrow. Identify your consumer very sharply, identify your geography very sharply. Identify your media vehicle very sharply and in this you know, sharply identified consumer into geography, into media vehicle. Make sure that you have a higher share of voice than the incumbent market leader. And so you become this king in this little puddle, but when you become a king in that puddle, it’ll be easier for you to to expand from there. Does that make sense?

[00:27:46] Samir: Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. So just to reiterate it, so you, your objective is to have a higher share of voice than your share of market,

[00:27:55] Vani: in that geography for that segment. I have a higher share of voice than Ponds that, yeah, that doesn’t seem so intimidating. Otherwise, Ponds would would be a monster.

[00:28:03] Samir: Exactly. Otherwise you can, yeah. And that you can do either through media segmentation or through consumer segmentation. So what I mean by that media segmentation, I can just take, let’s say example autos I’m not for this category, but let’s say some other category where, let’s say a cab advertising now a cab, I can ensure that, that I know that my segment, my target group is there, but the competition is not advertising there. I will pick up enough numbers so that on the audience who is watching ads on cab, there, I am the only brand known or I am the bigger brand known. So that’s when you segment it using a media. You can also segment it using the audience, which was the other example where it said, I want to do something in the IT park, so everyone who is my audience in the IT park should know me more than anyone else. So then I advertise inside IT park, which might cost me a lakh I will take a bus shelter and a bus route in and around that IT park, which might cost me another lakh, lakh and a half. So within two, two and a half lakh kind of money, I am, I ensure that I am the bigger known brand for that audience.

[00:29:02] Vani: So by the same principle, tell me Samir. Now I’m extending this to a B2B company. Okay. Now, let’s say I’m a B2B company. I don’t have too much money. I am talking to all of the HR heads, only the HR heads of large companies. Okay? I know that these HR heads are inundated with proposals from insurance companies health, and wellness compensation management various kinds of SAS-based products, blah, blah for, employee productivity, blah, blah. I am one amongst those many players, and I also have to get the ear of the CHRO now where I’m competing against so many other companies that are also putting up, Putting proposals in front of the CHRO, what if I were to decide that I will become the king at this one conference, which is called the NHRD? At the NHRD conference. I will put in enough amount of money and do something so maverick that for all of the HR heads that come to this conference, I am the only brand that sticks in their head. Would that be a good idea? \

[00:30:10] Samir: So it would be, so I’ll mix this one with the previous one where we talked about reaching out to the CXOs, I think what will what this will do, this approach will do, is to get you the brand familiarity. But the continuity is something that needs to be maintained. Because what will happen is by the time you get an so this will get you an introduction, but by the time you go meet talk, people forget again. So I think it’ll be a good medium to get that initial impact and introduction and then follow up with something like LinkedIn to ensure that there’s a gentle reminder that continues happening.

[00:30:43] Vani: Perfect. Makes a lot of sense. Fantastic. Okay, last one, Samir. I’m a young startup three series A. I have only less than two crores budget. Actually even two crores seems to be quite quite bountiful. Let’s say I have one and a half or one crore budget. This is all I have. I’m a young pre-series A startup, huh, and and I’m looking to play the mass market of kids apparel. I believe my apparel is the most thoughtfully constructed. I believe that there is something unique about my apparel. Now, what would you recommend I do?

[00:31:16] Samir: I think where the initial corpus is too small to do anything, which is like a very large market. I think for any brand like this, what is very important for them is to have a very ROI driven marketing where they are operating much more at the bottom of the funnel and middle of the funnel. Than rather than the top of the funnel, because at this kind of budget, you will not be able to do a much impact on the top of the funnel. So I think till your budgets are like about the one cr and your market is more or less mass where there are established players and you have a differentiated proposition. I would suggest put all of these money into performance marketing and performance itself has a lot of things built into it. So till you can and till you can scale up your performance, I don’t think there is any point putting money into branding. It’s only once your performance is stagnating or you have an enough ROI where you can use money to build more top of the funnel, you should take money out of it.

[00:32:14] But let’s say one cr for an year translates to about seven to eight lakhs in a month, I think it’s better you invest it into a Facebook and a Google campaign, which gives you right purchase. And I’m assuming here that they have an online,

[00:32:28] Vani: correct, definitely. Yes.

[00:32:30] Samir: And most of these brands would be like that, so I think initial money just put into these and seven, eight lakhs easily can be spent into this category. It’s only once this has started plateauing, your CACs are going very high and your growth is more or less flat. Is that when you have to start investing money towards the top of the funnel. Now, once you have that money, still, your your approach should be, see, most of these performance campaigns they work on, like if I have to simplify it, they work on the basis of your retargeting audience and a look-like audience. So first, run performance. Now if you have more money left, try to drive traffic or installs towards your website and the app so that these performance platforms have more and more of top of the funnel audience, so they know who are the audience who are engaging with this so that they can use them to convert.

[00:33:20] So establish the funnel with the bottom of the funnel and middle of the funnel. Then anytime you have money, try to run campaigns, which are again towards traffic or installs, but not to get into branding at this stage for sure. So initial branding should come from product usage rather than media communication.

[00:33:38] Vani: Perfect. Samir, this makes a lot of sense and of course needless to say that when you run your performance marketing campaign, make sure you have character, make sure you have personality, make sure you have smart, clear messaging that there is a sharp proposition. The consumer knows why one should buy you. You’re not just, you don’t just mix in the sea of the, zillion other apparel brands, that you look distinctive. And while you’re doing that, spend all your money on performance.

[00:34:02] Samir: Yeah, no, I think Vani you have put, you have hit the nail right on the head, but unfortunately it’s such simplistic thing. But most of the brands, they miss out on that part and they end up actually either blaming the platform or people who are running it right or saying that this platform doesn’t work for me. If say Facebook and Google with 500 million plus people on the platform doesn’t work for your product, then there is something wrong with the product. And with all the AI like Google, which is a performance max, or Facebook, which has only way has a conversion campaign, actually, you don’t need to do much with the platform. You should be spending 90% of your time on the creative and the communication and the brand personality, and that’s where people take the shortcut and invest the least amount of time. But if they can lead everything to the platform I’m saying like even at the risk of being too simplistic, you just do an open targeting, leave the product. But if your creative are right, if your product is right, you will be able to run a successful performance campaign.

[00:34:55] Vani: Very well said. Absolutely. And I keep saying this all the time, that the consumer doesn’t know or care whether this is a brand campaign or a performance campaign or what kind of an ad is this. All that the consumer is looking at is some ad. It’s yet another ad. And you’ve got to figure as a marketer whether your ad is creating impact. You know, but we, we stress about, in our mind, we are thinking nahi yeh toh performance as hai, yeh toh brand campaign ad hai, toh brand campaign ad me aisa aisa hona chaahiye and performance ad me aisa aisa hona chaahiye. Consumer just doesn’t care. It’s an ad. She looks at that ad and she decides.

[00:35:34] Samir: People take shortcuts and creative. I think that’s where. It’s and with the, all the platforms moving towards the such strong AI now performance max kinda campaign, they don’t even let you do anything. They will do it for you. And there’s a line use very frequently for many brands when they come and ask ki mere liye Facebook ka kaam karega kya? And I tell them the question is wrong, the question that you should be asking is, what should I do so that Facebook

[00:36:04] Vani: works for me. Very nice. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:07] Samir: If Facebook and Google is not working for you, then you better figure out a way that it works out for you. so, and creative is the bigger route to pick up and the right route to ensure that it works.

[00:36:20] Vani: Yeah. Yeah. So often you and I have had conversations where I’ve come to you asking for media solutions and you’ve always pushed me back and said, what about the creative? Show me the creative, what is the creative looking like? It goes back to exactly what you are saying just now.

[00:36:33] Samir: Nahi people take a shortcut there, I think. And that’s an also the area of discomfort for many of people who are like on the product side, who are on the engineering side.

[00:36:42] Vani: Yes, Yes. Because performance marketing seems to be like working the algo. I’m very smart tech gal. I can work the algo. If I just work the algo and the creative will work, not realizing that the consumer is a simple animal and the consumer is looking at this as just another ad and she’s scrolling she makes the decision on where she should stop. I think Facebook had done a damn good job of educating marketers with their thumb stopping campaign, but I think there is a lot more that needs to be done on what a hardworking creative is in the world of digital.

[00:37:15] Samir: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:37:17] Vani: Okay, fantastic. Samir, it’s been lovely talking to you. There’s been so much so simple and there’s so much clarity in the way you think and what you’ve given us as the audience is. Thank you so much for this.

[00:37:29] Samir: Thanks, Vani.

This show is sponsored by CherryPeachPlum Growth Consultancy. ?CherryPeachPlum is a marketing-focused business consultancy that delivers business results. Get in touch via www.cherrypeachplum.in to get marketing solutions that work in the real world!

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About Marketing with Vani

Hosted by award-winning marketeer Vani Dandia, who has spent over two decades in advertising and marketing with Unilever, PepsiCo, Reckitt Benckiser, Henkel, BBDO and Leo Burnett.
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